In addition to being owned by Bad Dragon who have repeatedly shown no respect for their employees, artists, or customers, e621 chooses to ignore the harm their tagging system perpetuates for those outside of “furry fetish gender norms”. They actively choose convenience over a more progressive and less stigmatizing system.
You can have your work removed and can be added to a Do Not Post (DNP) list by going here.
By request here is the entire conversation previously quoted here. I’ve omitted their name because to my knowledge they are no longer staff for e621.
Emphasis is mine.
[2:02:33 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I have a quick question about
tagging on e621
[2:04:09 PM] OMITTED: sure, what do you need?
[2:04:59 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Does tagging something herm
automatically add the intersex tag?
[2:05:28 PM] OMITTED: yes, as does tagging dickgirl, cuntboy, or maleherm
[2:06:12 PM] OMITTED: the “intersex” tag is considered an umbrella tag
for all those others, so if you ever want to search for all types of
genders like that at once, or want to blacklist all of them, or remove
all of them from whatever search you’re currently performing, you only
have to deal with the intersex tag
[2:06:28 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: My issue with this, is that
those are not one in the same. I’m intersexed, and I don’t really
appreciate the tags being linked. A herm is a fetish, something that
cannot really exist, intersexed does exist and isn’t exclusively a
fetish.
[2:08:26 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: While I understand you’re
using the ‘intersex’ tag to make it easy to blacklist content, it
perpetuates a pretty confusing stereotype.
[2:08:59 PM] OMITTED: we’re not saying they’re one in the same, we’re
saying one implies the other. It’s the same as saying how an orange
implies “fruit”, because an orange is a fruit.
[2:09:34 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: When something is tagged herm,
and autoadds intersex, that implies they are the same.
[2:09:48 PM] OMITTED: no, it means one is a subset of the other
[2:09:54 PM] OMITTED: orange and “fruit” are not the same thing
[2:10:01 PM] OMITTED: an orange IS a fruit, but not all fruits are oranges
[2:10:10 PM] OMITTED: a herm is intersex, but not all intersex are herms
[2:10:30 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: no they are not the same.
[2:10:43 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: http://www.isna.org/faq/hermaphrodite
[2:10:51 PM] OMITTED: https://e621.net/wiki/show?title=intersex
https://e621.net/wiki/show?title=herm our wiki pages for these tags also describe how the tags should be used
[2:11:15 PM] OMITTED: Urban you’re confusing what I’m saying
[2:11:29 PM] OMITTED: i am not saying that someone who is intersex is a herm
[2:12:02 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I guess my issue, is that when
someone tags herm on their 20ft dickgirl, and intersex is added, they
then assume they are the same thing.
[2:12:24 PM] OMITTED: if they were the same thing then we would favor one tag over the other, not leave both on the image
[2:12:51 PM] OMITTED: like how urban_coyote and urbancoyote are the same thing
[2:12:57 PM] OMITTED: just different spellings
[2:13:23 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Are you implying herm and
intersex are the same, then?
[2:13:53 PM] OMITTED: no, Urban. Again, that would be like saying that
“orange” and “fruit” are the same thing. They’re not.
[2:14:12 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis:
https://e621.net/post/show/397984 this is the mythological herm, it’s
impossible in the real world. it is also tagged intersex. Intersexed
is not this.
[2:14:50 PM] OMITTED: herms are considered to be a TYPE of intersexed gender on e621
[2:14:57 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: dickgirl, cuntboy, things like
that are usually herms, or transgenered folks, not intersexed.
[2:15:51 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Intersex is not an umbrella
term, though. http://www.isna.org/node/979
[2:15:57 PM] OMITTED: what would you suggest they all be categorized
under then, if not intersex?
[2:16:06 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Is it not helpful to enforce
the belief that they are by adding that tag.
[2:16:17 PM] OMITTED: yes I understand your personal feelings on the matter
[2:16:26 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Dickgirl, cuntboy, both are
herms, usually of the fetish variety.
[2:16:47 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: neither of those are typical
of a true intersexed person.
[2:18:47 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I’d like to see e621 move away
from implying that intersex is the same thing as herm.
[2:18:59 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: intentionally or not, that’s
what’s happening.
[2:19:25 PM] OMITTED: what is your/the definition of intersex then?
[2:24:02 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: It’s not about my definition.
It’s about the stigma being reenforced by e621.
[2:24:18 PM | Edited 2:24:24 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I get it,
it’s a porn site, but it does have an effect of the people who use it.
[2:25:03 PM] OMITTED: Urban, in order for me to understand why you're saying that there are no herms who can possibly be considered
intersex, I need to know what makes someone intersex to begin with.
[2:25:09 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I’m linking those articles
because I’m not very articulate, but those folks are.
[2:25:38 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Herm is an archaic word. It’s
not something people in the real world generally want to be called.
[2:26:13 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: It’s usually a fetish term,
and frankly people who are born intersex generally don’t appreciate
people called 'cuntboy’ or 'dickgirl’.
[2:27:08 PM] OMITTED: yes, we’ve heard this before 1000 times. We
understand that they’re not very nice terms, but the problem is that
they serve a very specific purpose on e621, and so far we’ve not heard
any suitable replacements for those terms.
[2:27:36 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: don’t use intersex.
[2:27:48 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: it’s silly, and if you use
'herm’ is serves it’s purpose just fine.
[2:29:22 PM] OMITTED: so is there an overall classification for “females
with a penis and no vagina”, “males with a vagina and no penis”,
“female with both vagina and penis”, and “male with both vagina and
penis”?
[2:29:22 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Frankly, I was really upset
when one of my 'cuntboy’ pieces was uploaded and tagged intersex.
[2:29:47 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Yes, what you’re describing,
in e621’s needs, is simply herm.
[2:30:13 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: There is no real reason to use
'intersex’ in replacement of 'herm’ on a fetish site.
[2:30:40 PM] OMITTED: what would i search for on e621 if i wanted to find girls with both a vagina and a penis, but not cuntboys or dickgirls?
[2:30:52 PM] OMITTED: it’s not used IN REPLACEMENT, Urban =/
[2:30:57 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: herm and blacklist cuntboy and dickgirl
[2:31:08 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis:
https://e621.net/post/show/394019 is not intersexed.
[2:31:15 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: but it
[2:31:24 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: ’s tagged that way because of
the system in place.
[2:32:05 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Intersexed people do not have
a vagina and a penis.
[2:32:11 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: It is not possible.
[2:32:36 PM] OMITTED: they only have one or the other?
[2:33:13 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Yes. Enlarged clit, maybe, but
physiologically speaking there isn’t space for both working parts.
[2:33:25 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: It’s a fetish and nothing more.
[2:35:28 PM] OMITTED: so someone who is female but has a penis is
considered to be intersexed?
[2:35:40 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Female in which way?
[2:36:11 PM] OMITTED: we’ll say by appearances only, since that’s all
that e621’s tagging system is concerned with
[2:36:30 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Apperance how?
[2:36:37 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Eyelashes, giant boobs?
[2:36:40 PM] OMITTED: they look like a female but they have a penis
instead of a vagina
[2:37:16 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: So exact female anatomy,
curvey body formed breasts, but instead of a vagina they have
testicles and a penis?
[2:37:23 PM] OMITTED: yes
[2:37:39 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: dickgirl.
[2:38:03 PM | Edited 2:38:08 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Humans
with testicles and fully functioning penises rarely grow formed
breasts.
[2:38:10 PM] OMITTED: Urban
[2:38:53 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I think the issue here is
blurring the lines between fetish and reality.
[2:38:55 PM] OMITTED: i need you to understand one thing: we’re not
talking about humans, we’re talking about furry porn, where furries
have demonstrated very thoroughly that they don’t care what’s actually
possible and what’s not. In furry porn, anything is possible.
[2:39:16 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: That’s not an excuse to
enforce a very negative stigma.
[2:41:56 PM | Edited 2:42:21 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I think
the benefits of helping reenforce a healthy view on this condition
outweigh the need to cater to simplicity.
[2:42:36 PM] OMITTED: then again, what do you propose as a solution? What could e621 do that would allow these different gender tags to be
represented by one single tag that covers all of them, without calling
them intersex? Are you suggesting that we call all dickgirls and
cuntboys “herms”?
[2:42:46 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: yes.
[2:42:52 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: because that is what they are.
[2:44:08 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Those are fetish terms for a
fantasy creature. Intersexed is a real condition that is not
surgically created.
[2:48:32 PM] OMITTED: it’s looking to me more like the common definition of these terms and the politically-correct definitions are at odds
[2:48:46 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Incorrect.
[2:48:53 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: That’s a misconception.
[2:48:57 PM] OMITTED: https://www.google.com/#q=define+hermaphrodite&qscrl=1
https://www.google.com/search?qscrl=1&q=define+intersex
[2:49:07 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: A doctor worth their grain of
salt knows better.
[2:49:09 PM] OMITTED: these are the definitions Google provides
[2:50:01 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: What is the implicit benefit
to using intersexed, as opposed to removing the tag?
[2:50:34 PM] OMITTED: the implicit benefit is simplifying searching and
blacklisting on the site
[2:51:02 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: So e621’s stance is to choose
simplicity, while propagating a harmful stereotype?
[3:04:50 PM] OMITTED: e621’s stance is to do what makes sense for it to do from an administrative standpoint. Any propagation of harmful stereotypes or other offensive things is completely unintentional.
[3:06:13 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Am I to take that as e621’s
unwillingness to cease using intersex as an umbrella term for
hermaphrodite fetish material?
[3:06:17 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Because it’s easier?
[3:13:38 PM | Edited 3:14:02 PM] OMITTED: if you want an “official” word about this issue from e621, then you’ll need to talk to Dave or Varka, since I’m not e621’s lead administrator anymore. I can only tell you that the previous decisions regarding this issue have favored keeping them under the “intersex” umbrella tag, because 1) it’s the definition that people are most familiar with (which is reinforced by the definitions provided by Google for “intersex” and “hermaphrodite”), and 2) it greatly complicates and limits searching and blacklisting for those terms on e621 if the relationships between those tags aren't configured as they are right now
[3:14:20 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Most people I’ve found don't google intersex for their herm porn.
[3:16:29 PM] OMITTED: right, because if they’re looking for herms, they search for herms, and if they’re looking for dickgirls or cuntboys, they search for dickgirls or cuntboys
[3:16:50 PM] OMITTED: searching for “herm” should not display dickgirls and cuntboys on e621 as well
[3:17:09 PM] OMITTED: because that’s not what they’re wanting to see if they search for herm
[3:17:33 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Dickgirls and cuntboys ARE herms.
[3:17:43 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: They are fetish material. They are NOT intersexed.
[3:18:54 PM] OMITTED: so what would be tagged as “intersex” on e621?
[3:18:57 PM] OMITTED: anything?
[3:18:57 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: This isn’t simply an issue of
convenience, it’s also about respect.
[3:19:13 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: mostl likely nothing on e621
would be intersexed.
[3:19:29 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: because usually the characters
are 'dickgirls’ or 'cuntboys’.
[3:19:51 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: if it was intersexed the tag
what you see policy would most likely just tag it as male or female.
[3:20:03 PM] OMITTED: what would they need to change to make the
characters intersexed as opposed to cuntboys or dickgirls?
[3:21:33 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: cuntboys are usually fully
developed men in anatomy, except they have a vagina. no enlarged
breasts despite estrogen or anything of the sort. an intersexed male
will most likely not display the complete anatomy of a male save for a
fully developed vagina.
[3:21:57 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: That’s simply not how hormones
and development works.
[3:23:56 PM] OMITTED: So an intersexed male is a cuntboy but just not
completely a cuntboy?
[3:24:32 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: When I explain my sex to
people (furries usually), they almost always jump right to 'herm’
before I can even explain it fully. Then I need explain intersex,
which most of them haven’t even heard of.
[3:25:23 PM | Edited 3:25:34 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Perhaps
being in the position I am has given me a better idea of the impact
this misuse of terms has, but continuing to bungle the two for
convenience is disheartening.
[3:26:56 PM] OMITTED: I assure you I understand where you’re coming from. I’m just trying to emphasize that the solution isn’t as quick and easy as you want it to be.
[3:27:29 PM] OMITTED: practically all “intersex” tags on e621 have been criticized over and over again
[3:27:41 PM] OMITTED: many saying that we shouldn’t use the term cuntboy or dickgirl because these terms are offensive
[3:27:50 PM] OMITTED: terms that you’re telling me shouldn’t actually apply to any real human being anyways
[3:28:02 PM] OMITTED: yet people are still offended for some reason
[3:28:17 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: for some reason?
[3:28:26 PM] OMITTED: yes I understand why the terms can be seen as offensive
[3:28:40 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: It’s obvious someone who is
transgendered, transitioning wouldn’t like to be called by their sex
parts.
[3:28:43 PM] OMITTED: I mean in the context of your argument stating that there are no “true” dickgirls or cuntboys out there.
[3:29:10 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: cuntboy and dickgirl are the
terms used for fetish art, intersex is not.
[3:29:18 PM | Edited 3:29:21 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: and should not be
[3:35:09 PM] OMITTED: again, you’re wanting to turn “wolf hermaphrodite" into "wolf hermaphrodite -dickgirl -cuntboy -maleherm”
[3:35:57 PM | Edited 3:36:06 PM] OMITTED: those searching for herm will then complain “why am i seeing dickgirls and cuntboys and maleherms? I searched just for herms!”
[3:36:13 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Doesn’t it seem appropriate to
tag a dickgirl dickgirl and herm anyway?
[3:37:12 PM] OMITTED: no, because they don’t have both sets of sex organs like e621 says must be present in order for the “herm” tag to apply
[3:37:25 PM] OMITTED: from a technical standpoint, e621’s system does not consider dickgirls and cuntboys to be herms
[3:38:02 PM] OMITTED: when people search for herms, they expect to find herms
[3:38:07 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: that is exactly what they are.
[3:38:20 PM] OMITTED: not according to our users, Urban
[3:38:31 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: They’re wrong.
[3:38:44 PM] OMITTED: e621 has done this on many other tagging debates. We often have to favor what “works” over what’s “correct”
[3:38:50 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I’m not sure why or who would
go searching for herm and not expect dickgirls and cuntboys.
[3:39:16 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: inversely who searches for
dickboy and expects the intersexed tag?
[3:39:36 PM] OMITTED: people who have read google’s definition of
“intersexed” i guess
[3:39:54 PM] OMITTED: or rather, the definition that Google displays by
default (whatever the source is)
[3:40:06 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: but who that wants herm art
even looks for intersexed first?
[3:40:14 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: it’s silly to think that’s the
first go-to they’d have.
[3:41:08 PM] OMITTED: no one is looking for interesexed if they want
herm, Urban. That’s not the point of the tag. The point of the tag is
so such search results can be easily removed with just one negated tag
rather than THREE.
[3:41:32 PM] OMITTED: sure, they could search “intersexed” if they wanted
[3:41:59 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: My observation dictates, that
people who want herm art (dickgirls, cuntboys) search for either
'herm’ or those terms first. What you’re implying is that you could
really use any world to eliminate dickgirls and cuntboys, that it
doesn’t need to be relevant.
[3:42:19 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: Because should be the top of that tree.
[3:42:48 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: HERM is what dickgirl and
cuntboy fall under by DEFINITION. Not intersexed. Does transgender
also add the intersex tag?
[3:44:35 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: if furries think dickgirls and cuntboys aren’t herms, they’re wrong. Simply wrong.
[3:45:01 PM] OMITTED: no, because transgender has nothing to do with appearances, and so claiming that a character is intersexed because it’s transgendered would be inaccurate. Furthermore, the “transgender" tag on e621 can’t even be applied to anything (or isn’t supposed to be) unless the picture clearly references transgender in some way
[3:45:27 PM] OMITTED: And I’m sorry Urban but I have no further time to talk about this, I’m at work right now but it’s time for me to go home. I can talk with you more when I get home if you’d like, but that will be in about 30-45 minutes.
[3:46:21 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: You mentioned earlier that you
wouldn’t be able to make changes anyway. I appreciate you entertaining
my argument, though. I just wish e621 was more open to using more
appropriate tagging. :/
[3:47:13 PM] OMITTED: we’re always open to not offending people,
obviously e621 would prefer to not offend people. But we have to try
to do that while also allowing people to use the site in the way that
they want to use it.
[3:47:38 PM] Sethrick Lord of Atlantis: I’m going to head off myself,
I’ve expending more energy than I wanted to, not your fault of course,
I let myself get worked up. Have a safe trip home, hopefully I’ll talk
to you again another time about something perhaps less volitile.
[3:47:51 PM] OMITTED: sure thing, i don’t mind at all
[3:47:53 PM] OMITTED: take care
